Paid Time Off: More Than Just a Perk for Small Business Employees

Speaker 1: 0:14

Welcome to the Funded Podcast, where we dive into the details of how businesses really start, grow and operate. We'll hear from experts that can guide us to smart business decisions on finance, marketing, managing people and everything in between. I'm your host, stephanie. I'm the CEO of Funded, where we're on a mission to redefine how the smallest businesses understand and access capital, and today I'm chatting with Riley, the CEO of Donde, about employee PTO. Let's dive in First, riley. How should we even think about PTO, which stands for paid time off, in the world today? Like what is it even?

Speaker 2: 0:51

Great question. So PTO like you said, paid time off is a benefit. It's a benefit that companies offer their employees and, primarily, it's become a standard, like as an applicant is looking for a company to work for. They think about, of course, their compensation, they think about their health insurance. The next thing they think about is time off. I'm an employee. Of course I want to work here, of course I care about this business, but I also care about my own time, and so PTO became this, i guess, a sought after expectation that a company and an employee would strike this relationship around and to say like, hey, i'm going to come work for you for 40 hours, but you're going to give me these days, so it's a benefit. It's something that become table stakes in an employee's benefit package, and companies are consistently having to negotiate what this looks like, how they leverage it and does it make employees happy?

Speaker 1: 1:49

So check it out. explanation it's kind of funny When I take a step back. I don't know that I've ever been like well, what is this actually? And my only reference point is the way it's evolved too is this idea that a lot of places used to have sick time versus paid time off? I know there's small businesses out there that still only have a week a year. Now we hear about unlimited. So with that, i would love to hear your thoughts on kind of just the current state of PTO and what's going on out there with it.

Speaker 2: 2:21

Yeah. So PTO has evolved a lot. Like I said, it's been a part of the conversation for years. It is standard today, but what it looks like is very different between different industries, verticals, companies, cultures, et cetera. So, before we used to have this accrual, you had to earn your PTO. This was something that was like I give you this many hours and I receive this many hours off, right, and that model still many companies have. That It is pretty standard across industries. However, as companies evolved and they realized that, wow, okay, employees want more time off or people are overworking themselves. How do we rein that back in? And PTO came back into the conversation and was like what should it look like today? So it has evolved. There's accrual, there's paid time off, there's sick leave, and a lot of companies are negotiating that in the moment. What does their policy look like? And then here comes Unlimited PTO. Unlimited PTO came out as primarily a tool for tech companies that were like, hey, this is going to be a culture play for us. We're going to offer this look really sexy to applicants and they're going to want to come work for us because of it. However, what it really was behind the scenes was a way for companies to get rid of the liability, because in many states and in many companies, the policy is that a company has to pay you out for the time that you don't take off because it's this, i guess, legal document, this legal contract between an employee and an employer where it's like if I work this many hours, i deserve this many hours off. In that instance, a company now has to pay you for the days that you don't take off. So there's a huge liability out there. Companies carrying that liability now have to set the budget aside to say, okay, if I offer 20 days in our policy and they only take 10, now I have to pay out that 10 when they leave the business. And that's a lot. Billions of dollars are in liability around PTO, and so companies and tech companies got really smart. They're like how do we get rid of that liability but still make PTO something that's attractive to employees? So let's think of this new concept called unlimited, meaning that as an employee, you come in and you have unlimited days to take off. We're not going to determine what that number is. But what happened instead was that, yes, it did help companies attract really cool top talent, but instead now this culture is built around it, around permission. Do I have the permission to take time off? When it was an accrual based policy, it was seen as a gift. I've now earned this right to take time off, or you've given me this time off and I'm going to take it, and in the unlimited world, instead it's like everyone's policing each other. Okay, wait, so did my manager take? did my coworker take time off? Who's taking time off and when? did they put other people in a lurch, And so it really changed the culture around PTO for worse. It was not how it was intended, and so we now are thinking about what does PTO look like in the modern future of war, and people are discussing what that looks like That is so interesting.

Speaker 1: 5:47

That was a lot. Yeah, no, it was good. I think that all of us that introduced unlimited PTO we were well intentioned, like so many things in our world, and I kind of joke sometimes with my team that it's like you really have to care about who the leader of the company is when you have unlimited PTO, because I mean, i take vacation all the time. I have a passion around travel, so it's a big part of my life. But sometimes you feel that like, oh, what if it wasn't? Like would my team feel that freedom to take the time off if I wasn't taking so much time off? And I don't know. It's a complicated topic and we are going to come back to it. I'm also curious you have so much great knowledge around PTO pre-pandemic and post-pandemic. So we're now in this new world post-pandemic. We're in very different world pre. How did all of that impact PTO?

Speaker 2: 6:42

Yeah. so it's interesting is that there's always been this in America, in this American culture that we live in, where there were unused PTO days, meaning that every employee didn't use all of the days that were given to them. under this policy, in 2019, there was 29% of the PTO days allotted that went unused. However, in 2022, that was 55%. That means more days were not used than were used. What's interesting about that is then we see burnout is now a topic of the day, right, and that's because now, while we have less days used, we have more burnout. I think burnout essentially it's 75% of employees feel burnout at some point. So not every day, no, it is not that widespread but at some point in the month, in the year, every single employee almost is feeling this way. So it's widespread and it impacts companies because now, all of a sudden, they're feeling burned out and you know what happens they leave. Most of turnover is caused by burnout. So there's this logical step where it's like, okay, our PTO usage has gone down, people are feeling more burned out and now they're leaving. All of those things along that chain cost the company, and so it's really interesting to show those connections that it's like, hey, people not taking time off is not a good thing for business. Then it was a tool that you use to attract employees. If they don't take time off now, it's an unmet expectation and it's impacting your culture and your relationship with that employee. Also, it drives burnout. When people are burned out, they leave. You know what it takes to replace a new employee or an old employee and to bring someone in. You've got those recruiting costs. You've got the loss in the knowledge of that employee. now that is left, And it's three to six months to get someone up to speed on an average basis. And so it's costing companies to not only pay for recruitment services but also now what did they loss by losing that employee that knew what was going on and was able to be effective in that organization? And so it's interesting because PTO feels like it's at the heart of it. It's like they came in they wanted work-life balance. you didn't give it to them. now they're burned out and now they've left. Of course they left. Of course It should not be a surprise, but it is. People don't recognize that connection And so when we come in, we talk about that. recognize PTO is one of the biggest tools, the greatest tools that you have in this organization to keep your people happy, keep them effective and productive, and to keep them there. That's what you want, and so utilize it.

Speaker 1: 9:25

Yeah, that's so interesting And I never really thought about the burnout piece as it relates to PTO, but one of the interesting things that came to mind for me is this idea that people are now feeling burnt out because they aren't taking their own time to go live their lives and their solution is to leave the company. My understanding is that this is like an industry-wide problem That next company they're going to find there's actually a pretty good chance they're going to find a similar situation because it's just like become a topic, it seems like in every company and it's really hard to address. How are people using PTO? I've talked to you in the past about quality of PTO. What are we seeing? How are people using it? How should we be thinking about it? I really care about this topic. I'm a working mom And I feel like for a lot of us working moms, we feel like, oh my gosh, my company's policy is just equivalent to the days off my kids have from school, so all they're really doing is freeing me up to be a parent those days, i don't know. So I'm just kind of curious to understand that a little bit better.

Speaker 2: 10:35

Yeah, it's so interesting because you're right, i think PTO has become synonymous with work life, where it's this idea that, as an employee, i want to have that work life, and people kind of get all passionate about this term work life balance. It shouldn't be a thing that we should be able to really separate and have boundaries in that, or maybe that we shouldn't have the boundaries and that work should be a part of our life. People feel really strongly about that one way or the other, but I think the important aspect is that people need work-life balance because we're humans, we have kids, we get sick, we have hobbies, we have things that keep us motivated, that keep us engaged at work, and the way that we think about it at Donde is that it's really this relationship between our time on and our time off, and oftentimes companies aren't thinking about how impactful our time off is to the way that we show about work, and so there's this separation between what we do at home and what we do at work And that when we show up to work, we should just be these perfect robotic individuals that are able to be efficient and effective. However, that's not the case, right? What we do at home, how we feel, how we take breaks, how we rest, how we sleep, how we take care of our health all that stuff leads into the way that we show up and the way that we're able to work, and so what we think about is that actually those are interconnected. And let's think about the quality of that time, and that's why you see now companies offering support services around mental health. Right, we realize that connection between our mental health and our ability to work. And now we also need to think about okay, what does work-life balance look like? What is the culture of this organization? How is an employee able to step out of the work that they're doing and be able to step into their life at home, and what role does work play in that transition? I guess, and so I think, when we think about PTO, we might say, okay, i really care about PTO because I want work-life, since I'm going to use those days off to go to the doctor, i'm going to use those days off to go to a kid's play or maybe to see their graduation, and really that is our just ability to step away from work and do the things that we're required to do with parents as people They care of our pets, et cetera. Pto, really what it should be, is this ability to take a break, a break from our everyday life. In the research that we see around rest, around productivity, what we find is that the human brain needs that separation. Because what happened, especially in today, post pandemic, in the future of work, there's this always on culture, there's this hustle culture where it's like, technically, i can work from anywhere and I can work anytime, and so work now is this flood in our life that takes over everything. But what happened now is the brain doesn't have that separation, it doesn't have that rest, that break, and without that ability to take a break and to give our brains and our mental capacity that separation from work, now we're just burned out. And so PTO was meant to be that break away from work, to give us that separation and to be able to create that space in our brain to be able to think, to think, to challenge ourselves, become innovative, to be creative, to become more confident. That's what a break does. I love this book by Alex Peng. He wrote it. He's this academic influencer in much of the tech world And the book about rest talks about. In most conversations around productivity we think about just working better, working smarter. We think about productivity and our to-do lists and how to make ourselves more efficient. What he says we're missing is the huge part of the puzzle where actually less work produces more work, more efficient, better, more productive work. And so he talks about the connection between rest and productivity, and I love that so much because that equation has been lost on the company. They say no, no, no, let's just get people into the office working butts and seats. We know that phrase. What we actually need is people out of their seats, taking breaks, resting their mind, going somewhere away from the mundaneness of their everyday life. And so we've forgotten the power of vacation. We've forgotten the power of yeah, i don't want to work on my yard this weekend. I actually need to go on a road biking trip, on a van expedition across the western United States, i need to go on to a beach, i need to go surfing, and we talk about that as a luxury, but it's not a luxury, it's an assessment And it's something that we need. We need to get outside of our everyday lives to be able to challenge ourselves and to separate ourselves from work and from that everyday, so that we can rest fully. And so yeah, so I think that we often think about it, but it's important.

Speaker 1: 15:29

Yeah, i've been thinking about what you were just saying. Is this like get in the van, go travel. We need to do both, and it feels like what's going on in the world right now. From my perspective, i have no idea what's going on in the world. Is this like all or nothing? black or white culture is like seems to be the results of it. That kind of goes hand in hand with burnout, this idea that I just don't want to work anymore And I want to like live in a van off of $50 a week or something, and so people are trying to just like escape from life in general. I know for me I've had periods of time where I've had downtime, and usually I'm pretty mindful of my downtime, knowing that it like usually leads to whatever my next company is, my next thing, my next project. I've never really thought of it as like I'm trying to permanently escape this world, but I don't know. It's just a very challenging topic that I love that idea.

Speaker 2: 16:27

Yeah, i love that thought because, you're right, gen Z, millennials there is this sense that really there is no balance, so it's either all or nothing. Either I'm working and I'm in the grind and I'm part of the corporate ladder and I'm just working for the man, or I'm not and I've escaped And I have this full freedom to be able to choose and direct my life. Because what we've been taught and what we've seen is that there is no balance between work and life, that there is no permission to be able to have that recreation, that leisure. And there's this quote that I love so much I can't remember who it was by, so excuse me, but it says that we need recreation to have creation, we need breaks to have breakthroughs, and that is that like connection between burnout and productivity and to say, actually, that is imperative for the human soul, for the human mind. But because we don't have that, then we have this rebellion against what corporate culture looks like and in order to engage with it or not, the thing you're absolutely right there is this sense that either I'm going to engage or I'm not, and I'm going to either be a worker or I'm going to be an alternative style worker. And so I think that when we talk about like future of work those are the problems that we're facing is actually, what does the up and coming worst look like? Yeah, i know, because we just don't know what that looks like And as companies, we can solve it. We are a part of the solution. We are a part of that conversation. We need to take our stance in it and to say we're going to create something different. We're going to create an environment where people can come and feel like they can do great work but also step away. We just need to figure it out and it's totally possible.

Speaker 1: 18:11

It's not that hard, yeah it's possible, definitely So that's a good segue in thinking about all these companies out there Small, big, any Size Company. How do you then, or what are potential ideas of how you leverage PTO as a tool instead of this negotiating chip or broken promise? it sounds like It's like okay, let's make this a tool. How do we do that?

Speaker 2: 18:38

I love that, thank you. The stat is that PTO is the second most requested benefit, meaning that, yes, of course I need health insurance That's why I work But the next thing I want is I want breaks. I want to get outside of work. Please let me do this. But what happens, like we said, is that it's this broken promise, and so I think when companies they don't leverage PTO, they don't actually think of it as a powerful tool in their toolbox to be able to improve their relationship with their employees, So they just kind of toss it aside like, well, we offer it. Isn't that good enough? No, it's actually not, because you're not thinking about its potential. There's this quote from Shurm that says well, 97% of companies offer PTO. It is widely underutilized And no one is taking advantage of the potential that it has, and so when I think about potential, oftentimes PTO is thought of as the quantity. Ok, so I offered 10 days off, now I'm going to offer 11. Woohoo, am I not the best employer ever? Like? look at me, come work for our company? No, one extra day is not going to change your relationship with your employee. It's going to improve burnout. It's not going to increase productivity. When we think about PTO. It's not just about the quantity of days that you offer, it's about the quality. And so it's not just like oh, let's just increase days and then hopefully don't take it. People can see right through that. You're not just going to now offer 20 days and people are going to think I'm going to take 20 days off. No, because then they'll take 10. And now they're upset about it. And so what we say is like OK, if you're going to offer 10 days, let's make those 10 days count. They're going to be gone anyway. Let's make sure that when they're gone, they're actually able to take that break to rest and come back more productive. Let's utilize this time off so that their time on is better. And so we say let's make sure and facilitate a way for employees to take a break and to go on a vacation, and that vacation can look like anything it wants for each individual person, but let's give it in their mind Let's make sure that they can take a vacation. So I think that the quality of time off isn't just time to go work on your broken sprinkler system. That's not going to help your productivity. But what could do that? What could actually improve your productivity as an employee your efficiency, your ability to make decisions quicker or your ability to go down All the things that improve you as a human. A vacation will do that. The data shows that 100%. So let's talk about how we actually enable that and get people to do that. And the problem is that it's hard to take a vacation. We can talk about that, but I think the main point is that, as we think about PTO, let's not only think about the number of days that you offer, the culture that surrounds that, but then also the quality. When employees actually take the time off, does it improve their ability to come back and do great work?

Speaker 1: 21:36

Yeah, the quality one is such an interesting one to me. I've been a small business owner for 15 years And I totally get it. In tech and big corporations and stuff, we're operating on a lot bigger budgets, and so are the employees, and so I think about my background, though, in small business ownership. One of the biggest issues with quality that I've come across that I just can't seem to solve and don't really have good insights on. I mean, i have thoughts, but is this thing is in hourly wage workers, which is a lot of our small business workers out there. Usually they get paid out for their vacation time, whether they take it or not. So one of our businesses will pay out quarterly or annually on any unused vacation, and so what will happen is we oftentimes we would love for people to take vacation, we understand the quality of it, but they'll want the extra money. So they'll say I'm not going to take my vacation time, i'm going to work because I get paid hourly and then get paid out too. And it's one of these tricky topics is like how, as an employer, can you say no, you really need to go take a vacation, because you might get burnt out if you don't. And the employee is like I need to pay my rent and want that extra money. And so there's this conflict and priorities where we're trying to prevent burnout or trying to improve quality of life, but it's super easy to forget that there are a lot of struggling people out there. Our world is expensive and they see PTO as a tool to get some extra cash. I don't know if you've solved that world problem yet, but it's just hard. I think this topic is really hard.

Speaker 2: 23:22

I think so too. I'm so glad you brought it up because it is a really interesting, tough topic. So I think it comes down to the way that you think of compensation. So compensation again is a tool. That how do you compensate how much at what level? what way can they grow in their careers based on that compensation? Is it salary, is hourly, et cetera. And so benefits are part of that compensation strategy. But the thing is is that benefits are not salary. They are not what you pay your employees hourly. They are a way for you to give them access to something that they wouldn't have access to without your support, like healthcare. It's a way for you to create a culture. It's a way for you to attract. It's a way for you to retain. They are tools in your compensation strategy, but they are different than compensation. The thing is is that with this out, i mean, i have never been a small business owner outside of tech, so I understand that I'm coming in as an outsider, so I apologize for that, but my perspective on it is that the reason that the employee is expecting or planning on that payout is because that's how it's always been done. They've been seeing that payout as a part of their salary, compensation, their cash income, and so I think it's a different think of it as an owner is like actually, what am I trying to get out of my employees and how am I leveraging my benefits to do that? I'm offering health insurance because I want them to not feel stressed about how they're going to pay for their baby to go to the emergency room. This is to lower stress and to improve physical health. That's why you offer health insurance. Why do you offer PTO? Because you actually want them to take time off. But what they're thinking is like no, it's part of my compensation, it's part of my salary, and so I'm going to involve that in my budgetary strategy, i guess. But instead I think what we should think about is what is good for my employee And, as an employer, how do I take part in that conversation? So what's going to happen instead is that, as a company, you're going to say what's my budget for this employee? Okay, i got to pay for their health insurance. I got to pay for their payout, maybe not? I got to pay for their PTO and the payouts of that and their salary. We now have a budget dedicated to every single employee. So if the payout is part of that budget. Instead, why don't you apply that to their salary, give them a little bit of a bump and instead don't pay out for that time off And instead make them take that time off, because now you're going to have less burnout, you're going to have them grateful for that increase in that pay, but now they're going to actually take the time off and they're going to come back and be more efficient. And so I think, instead of PTO being considered as part of compensation and income, it should be thought of as a way to reduce work and to reduce turnover, because turnover costs the business as well. So it's a financial conversation which is so interesting. The CFO needs to be thinking about this. They think about yes, this is the dollar value of every single employee. How do I break that down and utilize each one of those benefits and salary as a tool to attract, retain and make sure that they're productive and efficient? It's part of the conversation. So that's my outsider perspective. I know what the data shows around turnover and the cost of it. I know what the data shows about burnout and the cost of that, and I want to say to our employers let's think about this a little bit deeper but get more strategic in the way that we solve these problems, and benefits are a way to do that. So I don't know if I answered your question, but I just think it's something we really need to think about when we need to revamp.

Speaker 1: 26:59

Yeah, you know, what it kind of makes me think of too is the book drive that talks a lot about how bonus programs and stuff aren't a good solution, because ultimately it's about inspiring the employee and how these different tools we sometimes use because it's the way we've always done things, doesn't actually mean that they're the right way in to think creatively about them. I'm putting my small business owner hat on, i think, when you think about the super small business owner that is the majority of our economy. So all these businesses out there that have, let's call it, five employees, eight employees, and they're thinking about offering PTO. It's a really intimidating topic. It kind of feels like one of those cans of worms that once open, you can't reverse on. And so, as a small business owner, what should I be thinking of, the downsides or potential risks of having a PTO policy, if I don't already have one today and I'm considering one Great question.

Speaker 2: 27:59

So, first off, you got to think about the type, because if you offer in a coroll-based program, you will have to have a payout policy most often And in many states it's required, or at least within that type of policy. So you need to think about what type of PTO you're going to offer, how much. You also need to think about okay, why am I going to offer it And I actually cover the employee when they're gone? That's one of the costs of PTO. You might not think about it because it's not something that is a media line item in the budget, but it's like can I actually cover this person when they're gone? Because if I offer them 10 days and they're gone 10 days, who's going to work? And I got to pay for both the person that's gone and the person that's on. So what does that look like? How many days are you going to offer and to consider, what does it mean when that person is gone? But I think where we also need to think about is okay, i'm going to offer this because my employees need it And because I want to be able to get people in that are going to stay loyal, that are going to stay efficient and work really hard And it's one of the tools. So think of it not only from the budget side, but also from the culture and efficiency side, and know that there are pros and cons to all of it. So what I would do is come to the like, acknowledge, as a business owner, that, yes, i want time off to be a part of my company culture, what I offer my employees. I am going to struggle when they leave. So what am I going to do to offset the pain around that? And now, what am I going to do to create that goodwill between me and my employee as I offer this benefit? Am I going to take time off so that they see that and they mirror that? Am I going to encourage them to take time off? Am I going to talk about it? Am I going to also encourage communication between my employees so that there's coverage, so that the workload isn't as high as it can be? There's all these things that are very intricate about it. So be prepared to try to solve for them, think through them, strategize around it and then make sure that you're listening to your employees. What do they want? What do they need? How do I actually leverage this as part of that conversation. So it is. It's a lot to take on, but I think businesses need to understand that it's a tool, it's powerful and just don't let it just sit there as something that goes unused and that you're not taking full advantage of its potential. So that's what I would say. Is that really hard about your PTO?

Speaker 1: 30:39

Yep, and that's such a good segue. I mean you are so passionate about this topic. I've learned so much about it from you, so like with that, i was like what are you up to? What is your company? How does your company participate in this topic? Like we'd just love to get to know that a little bit better.

Speaker 2: 30:54

Yeah, So I love talking about this topic so much And it's because I'm really passionate about it from a personal standpoint and also professional. So I am the CEO and co-founder of a tech company called Dome Day And we help people take vacation, and that sounds a little bit fluffy, but the data shows that actually this is very important And what we do is the helping side of that right. Companies offer PTO. People want to take vacation. The real question is can they actually take that vacation? Do they have the permission, do they have the funds And do they have the ability to actually plan for that vacation? And so we came up with a product that solves for each one of those three angles. And the reason is because we saw in the data that companies offer PTO but most of it goes unused. There are millions of days left on the table you chair by employees. So why, well, is the culture supporting it? Do they actually feel like they can take it? Can they disconnect? And then, if they can do that, what are they doing with that time? Can they actually afford to take a vacation? Do they have the ability to plan it? So we went and built a software where first, we tried to address the cost of taking a vacation, and most people go into debt to travel 74% of people And debt is on an all-time high. So most Americans have debt. And so there's this idea that I'm going to afford a vacation by putting out on a credit card, because then I'm going to get points And now I'm going to get this benefit of putting money onto this credit card. However, what happens is most people don't have the money to pay off that credit card, so instead they're carrying this balance, they're now paying interest And the cost of that vacation just went up. And so what we did is create a savings account. We said let's actually give people the ability to save our vacation And let's put the center of that. So let's now give a company a way to reward their employees with vacation because they already offer a PTO. Let's actually put some stake into the game, put our money where our mouth is and say I not only want you as a business, to take time off, but I'm going to help you go on a vacation with that time. And so, instead of giving your employee a Starbucks gift card or $25 to Amazon, where they're going to go buy a laundry hamper I heard that use case yesterday. So instead of buying a laundry hamper with my company's money, absolutely let's help them have a massage at a hotel on a weekend, or let's help them go to Disneyland with their kids for the first time, let's help them go to their grandma's 90th birthday. And so now a company can take part of those magical moments, that power of taking a break, and let's facilitate that and reward and contributions, bonuses, et cetera. So we have the savings account. A company can put money into it, an employee can put money into it. They save together. And then we have this marketplace where it has exclusive rates, exclusive deals, partnerships, itineraries, et cetera, and employees now have access to it. So we are their friend in the travel business. We show them a marketplace where they can go, book anything they want at great prices, and they can also access the concierge. So now they have travel agents free of charge at their disposal where they can get help in the planning, in the canceling, in the questions around what to do when, et cetera. And so we've basically unlocked travel. Is that, yes, many people think about? well, everyone travels. It's like, no, that's not true. It's actually quite inaccessible because it's massively expensive And I really don't know how to plan for it and I can't get time off, and so we just feel like we wanted to make people have, or enable people to have, access to it, to make it really available to them. And so for the hourly employee, i can even put $10 aside a month. My company can give me, say, $100. And now I've got about $200 to go and spend it on a flight to go see my family in California, whatever it look like. So savings account marketplace concierge service, that's what we do. The real power and passion behind it is to PTO better.

Speaker 1: 35:23

I love it. I mean, what you're doing is so important. You know that everybody loves what you're doing. It's a cool company. We really appreciate you being here today For everyone listening. Thank you for tuning in to our funded podcast. I hope you found this episode informative and helpful on your business journey. Don't forget to subscribe. Also, follow us on social for other great content And if you're looking for funding to grow your small business, check out our website getfundedcom for flexible and affordable funding options. Otherwise, we'll see everyone again next week. Riley, thank you so much. Bye.